Life isn't pointless (friendly debate)

[M00]

Disclaimer: this is a discussion for grown-ups; anyone unable to express themselves from participating without resorting to insult and mockery should thus abstain from that. Mods are obviously free to lock this thread at any point in time of their choosing and may remove it altogether if they see fit to do so.

Subject: There is a God, a Creator Who created everything which exists and gave it purpose. Yes, there is lots of evil in this world, but that evil is perpetrated by Man, who has been given the free will to do whatever he pleases but was also instructed to do good, not evil, and will be held to account for that.

This how the debate started:

@M00

@Vindace God protect u and your family, and the same for everyone here and everyone everywhere

@DontBeSilly

Which one?

@M00

the only One there is, regardless of whether you call him God, Dieu, Allah, Elohim; the One Who sent all the prophets with the same message, the Creator, the One Who created all diseases and all cures

@DontBeSilly

Imaginery friends shouldnt be part of this. They do not have a single thing to do with this issue. Our doctors and medical workes and at the end of the day our own hygene and awarness is what’s going to get us through this , not magical beings in the sky wherever someone think they live at.

@M00

you are as much entitled to believe whatever you wish to believe as I am, my friend; I have my belief and you have yours; I used to believe the same as you do now, but then I actually researched it, and based on what I found, that changed.

@DontBeSilly

Well i cant say i do entirely understand what you mean. It’s not what i believe in, it’s what i’m not believing in and feeling like it has no place in real life issues BUT i do not feel like arguing will bring anything of value here.

I said what i was compelled to say and i’m happy to leave it at that.

The fact is that you don’t know for sure, since you cannot verify it (you in fact can, which is what I did), so your conviction that there is no God is also nothing but a belief, a belief which does not make that much sense, since it entails believing that everything which exists has created itself somehow (even the Big Bang or the compacted energy which led to it; the fact is that if nothing existed but a single grain of sand, that would be all the proof you need, since if no one created it, it wouldn’t be there in the first place; there would be nothing at all)

@M00

but then I actually researched it

@Imaynotbehere4long

Can you cite your sources? I’m curious to see what changed your mind.

The second chapter of the Quran, entitled The Cow, is more than enough for anyone to no longer have a single shred of doubt that there is in fact a Creator, that this could be the speech of none but Him, and that He is the One Who sent all the prophets of old, including Moses and Jesus, with the same core message.

Of course, anyone will always be free and able to deny it, since that is the essence of the free will we were given, but at least they will no longer doubt it.

As is quite obvious, I’m also available and willing to answer all questions, though I’ll be working so I might only answer after a good amount of hours.

Just as background info: I was born a Christian in Belgium to Belgian parents, obviously baptized, went to Catholic schools, did my first communion and confirmation, couldn’t believe in the God which they were telling me about by the age of 10, but still believed there had to be “something”, but then by the age of 14 became a convinced atheist. I used to love to debate “believers” to instill doubt in their faith, sometimes quite successfully, but then at 22 (so 18 years ago, still in Belgium) met a Muslim who actually had some knowledge and was in fact able to answer a lot of the questions I always had had before. After a while, I started to “believe” but did not want that, so I decided to convince both myself and him that there was no God and that his faith was nothing but fantasy and wishful thinking, so without telling him that I had started to doubt my atheism, I told him I wanted to read in the Quran for myself to see what it was. My intention was to find mistakes (just like I had in previous holy scriptures [those are only there cuz priests and rabbis changed them - there are lots of different bible versions with actual visible differences between them, and there is no original, but there’s only one Quran]) and that would be my proof.

Just read the second chapter of the Quran for yourself; you can easily find it online.

The Quran is the reason I believe God did send all the Prophets of old, including Moses and Jesus, as well as the Old and New Testament

[Terzom]

Not sure if this is about Life or about if there is a God.

Because there is a distinct difference between them since the title is “Life isn’t pointless”.

In the end it’s all about yourself, you are the one living your own life and making your own choices, if you want to belive that there is a higher power in some form or if the future is already written or if everything is random.

[pulling3r]

Can you cite any evidence that is not written in your holy book? in the existence of a creator or even how this creator created everything?
Modern science can show evidence backing up the theory of how the universe was created.

[M00]

@Terzom

Not sure if this is about Life or about if there is a God.

well, my point with that is that if life is just you are born, live your life, and then die, and that’s it, then that would be absolutely pointless as well, but in case there is an afterlife and we get to influence ourselves what that afterlife is for ourselves by our actions in this life, then this life isn’t pointless

[DontBeSilly]

Life isint pointless. Religion is though having just one life of which you are responsible yourself makes it so much more meaningful than thinking that you can donate 10$ to one or another religion to buy out your sins. That’s what is pointless.

This is going to be my only response in this topic since i already can see that this is not going to go anywhere nice but saying that your religion is true because you have read so in a book… just ‘eh’

[M00]

@pulling3r

Can you cite any evidence that is not written in your holy book?

does it make a difference where the evidence would be found? If someone produced a book claiming therein to be the creator of everything, wouldn’t it be quite simple to debunk that?

@pulling3r

Modern science can show evidence backing up the theory of how the universe was created.

modern science is exactly one of the reasons why you’d be immediately convinced this book can be from none but the Creator, since many of the facts mentioned in it relating to embryology, meteorology, astronomy, geology, etc. etc.

Big bang:

{Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?} (Quran 21:30)

expansion of universe, protection of atmosphere, expansion of universe, etc.:

9 Astonishing Facts in the Quran that will Amaze You

embryology:

Human Embryology and the Holy Quran: An Overview

excerpt from that:

It was two decades ago that all the data was given to famous Scientists, Anatomists and Embryologists. Actually this work was started in King Abdul Aziz University in Jeddah.(3) One of the most eminent scholars is Keith Moore (one of the highest authorities in the field of embryology) and he surveyed a lot and was overwhelmed to know that Muslims had this knowledge since seventh century. He studied a lot and said that he would not have been able to answer most of the questions 30 years back due to lack of scientific knowledge.

In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Moore said, “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify some statements in Quraan about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God (Allah), because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a Messenger of God (Allah).(10)

Joe, the Chairman of Baylor College of the USA said that not only the findings were correct but in fact Islam could guide science in future. (10)

Johnson, another Anatomist from USA was really surprised and contradicted his own theories that these statements from Holy Quran could be a coincidence,or else Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had a powerful microscope and in the end said that being a scientist and depending on Quranic verses he believed that Muhammad was receiving information from somewhere and felt that Divine intervention was involved.

There is so much more, but I rly have no time now.

[M00]

@DontBeSilly

thinking that you can donate 10$ to one or another religion to buy out your sins. That’s what is pointless.

that would be quite stupid indeed

@DontBeSilly

saying that your religion is true because you have read so in a book… just ‘eh’

I never said that, in fact, I did the opposite, I declared other religions to also be true, religions i never believed in, based on that book

u deny something just because u dislike it, without even looking into it, but you are free to do so, and I’m perfectly fine with that; it’s your decision, your life

[Terzom]

@M00

by our actions

Here is what I think it gets interesting, who decides what is a good deed or not? You think it’s a good deed therefor you do it. But there is dilemmas and gray areas, so people take that to their own consecration to determine if it’s a good deed or not.

[pulling3r]

I sorry but a book that has been translated and changed over thousands of years to fit the narrative of the person or people who would benefit from it is not grounds for the proof of a creator.

You reference Human Embryology in the Quran.

Take a look at this A Scientist's Interpretation of References to Embryology in the Qur'an - RationalWiki

Also could you point me to a section in chapter two of the quran that provides proof of this creator? I’ve been reading it and its very rambling.
A quote from chapter 2:
"And recall that you said, “O Moses, we will not believe in you unless we see God plainly.” Thereupon the thunderbolt struck you, as you looked on.
Then We revived you after your death, so that you may be appreciative."

So I take it the person asked for proof, to actually see god. The proof he was given was he was killed by a thunderbolt and brought back to be appreciative?

This makes no sense and how would that compel you to believe in god?

[DontBeSilly]

@M00 I dont have anything against you , in fact i kind of like you and you do you but lets be honest here , you didint make this thread to debate, you made it to prove us ‘non-believers’ wrong . You ‘know’ that you are right ,so what’s there to be debated besides you trying to convince someone they are wrong?

Not believing in any deity makes your life so much more meaningful since that’s all the time you are given by the universe and you must make best of it without hiding behind any religion to correct for your mistakes or get second chances or whatever.

I hold myself to a way higher moral standarts than a lot of religious people do because i’m responsible for my own actions and i do not have a luxury to be a ■■■■ and then go pray a bit to get forgiven and carry on because 'hey i regret it and my religion forgives me ,hurrey ’ .

I try to be nice to animals, nature and some people who actually deserve that and not because i’m afraid of some divine punishment or to get on a better side of my deity and get rewarded later one,because i just feel like it’s a right thing to do and we are all just a collection of stardust.

Have a nice day .I’m out.

[Vindace]

@DontBeSilly

Life isint pointless. Religion is though having just one life of which you are responsible yourself makes it so much more meaningful than thinking that you can donate 10$ to one or another religion to buy out your sins. That’s what is pointless.

There’s so much going on in this thread I’m not sure that it is really a conducive format for such topics (there’s an argument to be made about such debating in general, but that’s another discussion). In response to this though, I agree! and so do many, many other Christians. In fact, many Christians believe in complete free will, where we certainly are responsible for our own actions. I don’t think that many people at all think you can just buy your salvation.

If people are going around breaking laws and doing wrong things just cause they can be forgiven, then they won’t be unless their heart actually changes. That what the Bible says, period. You seem to have some anger towards religion, and I’m sorry for that. Just know that some people take it seriously, and do hold themselves to a high standard in order to live properly.

I’m happy to continue with any conversations one on one with anyone, but I think that I will sit back on this otherwise.

[xist]

I’d just like to contribute to this thread but not directly to this topic, mostly because these sorts of debates tend to head south at a rate of knots.

I consider Moo a friend, and I think he feels the same way. With that being said he knows I’m an atheist through and through…he doesn’t judge me negatively for this, nor does he try to “convert” me when we talk. Why am I bringing this up? Well, because whenever these types of discussion arise the whole “know you’re right” and “no proof” things come up every time. Moo is stating HIS own belief and he’s NOT trying to talk down, or disparage anyone else’s beliefs. As I see it this is supposed to be a POSITIVE topic, and although religion (and politics) never stay positive that’s the intent.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs so long as they don’t hurt themselves or others so let’s just keep everything civil.

[M00]

@Terzom

Here is what I think it gets interesting, who decides what is a good deed or not?

Exactly, so either there is a Creator Who created both good and evil and hence is the sole determinator of what those are and then God will judge us based on that, or it’s rly just a matter of opinion and if there’s no afterlife then it rly doesn’t matter what one does in the end, cuz it will all be forgotten one day. If one day the human race is just extinguished, for example, it won’t have mattered what you or I or even Hitler did cuz it will not even be remembered and will be as if it never happened in the first place, hence it would all have been pointless, hence the title

[M00]

I’ll follow-up after work. I rly can’t afford to do it now. I appreciate everyone’s input, everyone’s. And i appreciate all of you. The truth is we have all gone through something quite traumatic here recently, which has touched all of us. I personally believe that I believe in what I believe based on irrefutable, scientific proof, though since the thing itself I believe in remains Unseen, it is still a matter of “believing”, of faith.

I fear if I say nothing at all, do nothing at all, you’ll hold me accountable for that later. I know you cannot believe that now. And I know you’d rather I just shut up.

Like my friend @xist says, I would never judge you or pretend I know better or more.

I will try to share what I believe is the truth in this thread I made. I will argue for it and try to prove it. I will provide answers when such is requested. At the very least, this is also an opportunity for you to learn more about Islam or Muslims in general, or about faith and believers in general. You can consider this a Muslim’s AMA also.

I made this thread and will see this thread through. Hopefully this will go well. And besides this thread, in which you’ll see me more from a religious side, I won’t be preaching or bothering you and I’ll be the same goofy gamer and memer cow who, as @Fraggles once put it, resembles a 12-year-old with too much imagination.

so whoever doesn’t like this thread can also just ignore it, or do whatever; each can do whatever they please.

I hope at the very least it will have widened your life experience and general world knowledge.

{O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.} [Quran 49:13]

(as a side note: Allah, in Arabic, literally is a contraction of 2 words: al ilaah: the God, so Allah just means what we call God)

@lonin I know this thread being here is probably not the best thing for the shop (lol, quite the euphemism), so honestly I will also understand if you guys rather not have it

[pulling3r]

In my opinion this kind of debate never goes anywhere, people want and can believe in anything they want to.
I think a lot of belief stems from fear of the unknown, a fear that there is nothing after death or life having no meaning. a belief system gives comfort to some people.
It’s my belief that there isn’t anything after, like there wasn’t anything before (in respect to me being born).
I don’t think there is a specific meaning to life, I think we are here to continue the species.
If you look at the animal kingdom every creatures goal is to reproduce.
Im okay with there being nothing after death and life to not have a “meaning” I don’t fear the unknown.

[dogetail]

Don’t get what the point of this thread (after all anyone is free to believe or think whatever they like is helpful to them, and people should find out the answers for themselves. Convincing other people to think one way especially in a debate format is usually not constructive.) but as it is but as it is a discussion let me leave my mark or whatever

I don’t think there is a god and having a god isn’t necessary for life having a purpose or whatever as much as it is necessary to have games for a purpose or unicorns in the sky to guide you to the light.
Purpose is within yourself and also life is there to experience.
God is a symptom of people trying to find purpose and gripping onto something outside themselves.
Praying is ineffective way of healing yourself. But i can understand the meaning of it and how people want to wish everyone good wishes, love and support. This is good but directing it to something outside yourself isn’t as much. What is effective is setting a postive intent to do something constructive. And along side that good actions. I think this is good way to do things. Buddhism has some useful ideas (alongside several harmful ones) of course even so I still keep away from religion generally.

There is not such thing as evil and good. Things are just as there are no matter how you label them. Cause and effect.

Saying that science is just theories. Which of course are very useful using rational tools, but any “truth” is questionable.
Question everything. But most importantly the best way to understand something is surely to experience it yourself and use your mind and thinking. Try to avoid confirmation bias and be open to ideas while filtering out the harmful things. Choosing the most useful hypothesis and often the simplest (depending on the available data).
But in the end things will be as they are whatever you believe or think. But best find the things that help you live life to the fullest.

[Pylinaer]

I’m going to need to find a specific thread on another forum. Once I find it I’ll post a link and some key information therein.

[Truly]

I gave up on religion when I was 12 or so and completely left church when I was 18.
God didn’t do anything for me when life was shit so I can live without it. If I’m wrong I’ll look forward to seeing my friends in hell.
You can believe whatever you want so long as it doesn’t impact me.

[EyeQue]

A Universe Not Made For Us (Carl Sagan on religion)

[Pylinaer]

@Pylinaer

find a specific thread on another forum.

Apparently that thread is so old that it was on the old version of the forum. I don’t think I’m going to find it.