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Just a casual observation on Steam today, that made me think*...


#17

This is true for the most part, but there’s definitely overlap, and I have encountered people referring to transwomen as “traps” to imply they’re not “real” women and otherwise wishing them harm. Obviously just being a jerk isn’t the same as causing actual harm (whether it be via online harassment or physical violence), but from what I’ve seen, for some people, it’s only one step removed. And, people aren’t born bigots, it’s something they’re socialised into, often via believing stereotypes because no one showed them otherwise. That’s why fighting stereotypes with education is important. Censorship can seem like an enticing, easier option, but it doesn’t do anything to show people why they’re doing more harm than good.


#18

My only issue is the amount of Hentai garbage (or otherwise) that rolls through Steam. Like I understand that people may be into playing mature games, and that’s fine. I’ve got a few that I own/have on my wishlist as well.

But it’s rather annoying for me when I would like to try games like:





and I have to wade through the likes of


(and a majority of RPGmaker stuff)

To be honest, I really don’t even look for stuff anymore, even though I know there are some good game to be had. Maybe this is more a problem with steam curation, I dunno.

I guess the TL:DR is that while I don’t care if people want to buy it, I’d like if there was less garbage with it.


#19

That’s not really a h-game specific issue though, that’s just steam being an open platform to publish games on. You can look at any genre really and you’ll have to go through heaps of rubbish to find anything worthwhile. That’s why you need outside sources and tools to figure out what’s worth having, curators catering to specific audiences are pretty good for this too.


#20

I’ll see myself out then.


#21

Meanwhile the gay (male) games get declined…lesbian are fine tho :roll_eyes:

Sakura Tempest
"18+ rated YAOI visual novel game dating sim set in a Japanese high school! "
(Age of consent isn’t really an argument either, since there’s already plenty of very explicit highschool dating sims on steam already)


#22

I’ve not done all the due research here, as in I’ve not played every h-game on steam. But for the most part, from what I’ve seen, h-games on steam comes in a censored state with most if not all explicit content removed and having to be restored through patches that are not distributed through steam. This is how they get around this issue.

I can’t find a whole lot of info on Sakura Storm, but every instance of it I’ve seen so far it is listed as explicit and 18+ rated, this rating usually means there’s explicit sex scenes. I think Pyrrhalpis is probably correct in their reasoning. Chances are if they released a neutered version of this game that’s 15+ rated steam is more likely to allow it.

Just as an example

Steam version is “all ages” rated.
Capture


#23

Stuff like this:

image

Also set in a Japanese high school (ergo minors), also very adult content (see the screenshots…). Yes you can patch it, but the Sakura Tempest/That Gay One was also prepared to go out with a Uncensor Patch soo…how is it different?


#24

Yes and the steam version is 15+ rated , if you want the 18+ rated one you have to go to Mangagamer.com, there is also a steam version decensoring patch hosted on the developer’s patreon page.
https://www.patreon.com/posts/sakura-swim-club-3327358


#25

The kickstarted one was planned for that as well. 99% of the 18+ stuff on steam has patches. That’s the norm.

Steam actually tried to clamp down on those patches being advertised, hence why it’s only officially mentioned off steam.

Eh. Maybe steam will try to ditch the anime tiddies (esp any that are highschoolers!) again and get the gamers mad again… :upside_down_face:


#26

The problem with your argument about the term “trap” being hijacked is that it’s a word with its own definition and connotations that existed long before it was used in the context you’re presenting it in, too. Those connotations—of a hidden object meant to catch and hold living creatures against their will (often painfully, and sometimes fatally)—are negative in any context where they’re applied to a human being.

The choice to originally use “trap” as a descriptor for the genre is problematic not because of its more recent widespread pejorative use against transwomen, but because of what the word actually means. That meaning is why it’s been used as a pejorative.

Personally, I would rather change my vocabulary—which happens all the time anyway, since English is a living, fluid language—than cause unintentional harm, especially to a group that’s getting more than their share of crap already.


#27

Well I don’t know what it was they sent to steam for verification. Don’t get me wrong I think it’s BS that they are limiting these things to begin with, adults should be allowed to chose for themselves what content they want to consume. But it is to some extent understandable that they have to stay on the right side of the law.

Just judging from what I can tell from a cursory look it doesn’t seem the most likely that Valve’s reason for rejection here is “Eww gays”. But I could certainly be wrong, I’m definitely agreeing with you that lesbians are far more accepted than homosexual men are.

@Lilene
Intention and context matters. None of your injections are applicable to the genre descriptor as none of those things are involved in the content it describes.

This is the problem with outsiders pushing their views on a small subculture.

Many words change their meanings and associations depending on the environment they’re used in. Claiming that one group is wrong to use it in a harmless way because another doesn’t is foolish at best and authoritarian at worst.

Personally I would rather not cater to those who would tell me what I am or am not allowed to say. Thanks for registering to the forums just to try though.


#28

@Lilene and @joxter and @eishiya seem to me to be trying to make a different point than you are, @Fraggles. However, it seems to me like both arguments are not mutually exclusive.

Of course “futanari (ふたなり)” (hermaphroditism), “Otoko no ko (男の娘)” (girl-boy or “male to female crossdressing”)* weren’t created in the bowels of Japan’s history to take a stab at XXI century transgender people. But I think turning this even more into an etymological discussion, this early on, would be missing the most relevant point: the contemporary implications of using our exclusively Western word that mixes (arguably mistakenly and oftentimes confusingly) both cross-dressing and futanari: trap.

I think understanding that futanari & crossdressing =/= trap in their respective cultures is important.

ふたなり and 男の娘 are in no way directly related to causing harm to transgender people. What seems to be causing harm to trans people is the Western need to call that type of anime/hentai genre a “trap,” when other nomenclature could have potentially been used.

An argument is to be made as to why that was the word chosen, but of course it could be rebuked by you with a simple “they had to pick something because we couldn’t be typing in kanji all the time” – and of course the point that that genre of hentai isn’t always about transgender characters, but that is implied in my previous point distinguishing the kanji.

Recently I read a suggestion of simply calling the genre “Mistaken Identity.” That would exclude the implied negative aspect of the etymology of the word “trap”, which Lilene presented,and should not be ignored despite context.

The point of saying language evolves is saying that it starts somewhere. To overlook the roots and previous usage of any given word in favor of current usage is to lose a fair chunk of its meaning. Both must be scrutinized – more on this, written exclusively for Fraggles, at the end of the post. That’s why we go back to Greek and Latin to understand the words we use today, and those are thousands of years old. Therefore, to understand two decades (or whatever, the precise date is irrelevant to the main point) of creating a new meaning of the word “trap” certainly depends on understanding the other meanings surrounding it.

The choice is not arbitrary, and that hentai genre is not called “potato” or “soap” or “ocean floor”. It’s called trap and, even if we take all the transgender discussion aside, there’s still plenty of material to question “why?”

Finally, the way I see it, most degrading trap hentai/anime seems to be western, which would explain why the trans folk against the trap genre aren’t Japanese: that degrading meaning does not seem to be implied in the “original” Japanese ふたなり material.

I think that to push forth any discussion on the topic we must distinguish between which aspects we’re trying to argue for/against/about:

  1. The Western view, usage and misappropriation of ふたなり & 男の娘 into “trap”. The implications of that word-choice and the evolution of the word itself in that context is also important.
  2. The ふたなり & 男の娘 genres, as originally and frequently seen and understood in Japan without the negative implication of deception.

I spent too long writing this. Goodbye :wave:


*I'm not a Japanese expert by a stretch, just providing some kanji to further highlight differences and avoid confusion.

PS: F, I entirely disagree with your last post. As I said, language evolves. Even neologisms (from the Greek “neo” new and “logo” word) come from somewhere. In the case of our discussion, semantics and connotation (what I believe is what you implied with “intention and context”) cannot be analyzed without etymology and denotation in mind. If the discussion to be had about your central point is subculture appropriation, connotation and denotation alike must be taken into account – otherwise it’s a Frankenstein part-analysis of a word and only a chunk of its meaning (either its “basic meaning” or its “extended meaning”, see this interesting passage I found for clarity.) One thing is not more important than the other for linguistics, and it’s important we take into account both what the “small subculture” attributes as connotation to the word “trap” as well as its denotation.

Please note that “right” and “wrong” – or a sense of morality or cultural judgment – are not implied in either linguistic aspects of analysis and I am not in any way taking a stab at either subcultures or transsexuals, merely pointing out the many aspects one should take into account for a healthy and thought-provoking linguistic discussion without falling prey to the common “that’s not what it means!” trap :wink:


EDITS 1-4: all made in favor of clarity.

#29

BTB if y’alls want some real

55d

stuff, I strongly recommend dragging your butts over to

https://trends.google.com

And looking up “anime traps” search trends in the US vs Japan, and similarly with “futanari” (or ふたなり for the brave/Japanese savvy), “otokonoko”, etc.

A lil preview for “anime traps”:

US

&

com%20b7095627d656

Japan

A lil preview for “futanari”:

US

&

NSFW

Japan

download%20(4)

EDIT: man this is too image-heavy… imma try to cut these pics and remove the “interest by subregion” bit hol’ on.

EDIT2: better. :+1:


#30

Get ready for emotional stuff, Clannad is always great.

This one is amazing just again… be ready to weep a bit.

I remember this being pretty good but also not really having a complete story.

A good game, like actually. And even better with the nsfw options.

@everyone And traps are not gay


#31

I believe that by keeping on insisting that the trap genre and transsexuals are in some way connected you’re only exacerbating the problem as I see it, the opposite of my attempt at imploring everyone to stop associating the two. If you want to claim that the association has happened and therefor we have to now accept that because “language evolves” then I can say in the same way that I’m trying to help language continue evolving.

The issue is really quite simple in my view. The point is that I will not accept someone else trying to dictate to me what I am allowed to say for the simple reason that someone might be offended. That language evolves and changes over time has nothing to do with this, authoritarian over reach by others is not natural evolution of language. Sure it can cause change in language when authoritarians are able to enforce their will on a population, thankfully that’s not the case just yet.

The secondary argument that it “causes harm to real people” is also something I reject because the actions of the violent who would harm another person and me speaking a word are completely and entirely separate and has no connection to each other. Words are not violence and actions taken by one person are not the fault of anyone but that person.

To clarify what I meant by context and intention. When I say that a magazine contains trap content someone of my ilk will know what that means and they’ll be able to make an informed decision on whether they want to purchase said item. The context here is genre descriptor of content, the intent is to be informative.

When Disgraceful person A throws a beer bottle at a transwoman followed by expletives and the word trap. The intent is to hurt, harm and demean.

These two events are not connected. Those two words are not connected. If said battered transwoman later overhears my friendly discussion with another weeb discussing trap material and she thinks that the content we’re describing is that of having bottles and expletives thrown at you and takes offense at my discussion then that is unfortunate but nothing more than that.

While I would be happy to explain to her the nuances of Japanese porn had she approached me with the question. I have no real obligation to her or her hurt feelings.

And that’s where I feel like we’re finished, because the argument that I see from you and Lilene here is that you seem think I do have that obligation.


Getting onto your second post, let me try to analyze that data for you.

This seems to support my previous claim that US mainstream didn’t know about “anime traps” until some time in 2017 and the resulting spike is when the misappropriation began.

Obviously you’re not going to see any data in Japan for “anime traps” because they largely don’t google things in English. The Japanese also mostly moves in very different corners of the internet to us westerners. I believe to this day Yahoo is still the largest search provider in south east Asia.

I am unsure about what you think the Futa graphs are supposed to show. Consider that Futa and Trap are again two very different types of content. Futanari genre does not have it’s own English word, so that word is used by everyone. While the content might be easy to conflate with the western porn featuring “shemales” it is not the same and a separation is desired. Which is why content curators of hentai media does not use the label “shemale” but instead uses “futanari”.

Futanari is also obviously used by the Japanese, being a Japanese word, which is why you can see a graph for it. I don’t know though, do you think google might conflate the data for “futanari” and “ふたなり” for this graph?


#32

You can’t be more stubborn, can’t you? XD

A lot of people already told you respectfully why its ofenssive but you keep repeating no one tells you what to do and that the term is not offensive (because you are transgender right?)
I ussed the term trap too, realized it was not ok and changed it. Its not that hard

Why not use tomgirl instead of trap?
Its pretty straight forward, femenine boy.
PD: I am not an english speaker so I dont know if tomgirl or tomboy carries a bad meaning too


#33

And I told them respectfully why I disagree.
Tomgirl describes something very different, content you’d find under the term shotacon, that’s not a reasonable substitution.

You’ve failed to make any kind of argument, just urging me to comply because it isn’t hard wont cut it I’m afraid.


#34

#35


#36

What’s up? Just got back from the hospital. Boy who would have thonk helping people would be so tiring I’m dead on my feat someone carry me to my grave and dump dirt on my corpse. :woman_health_worker: :skull_and_crossbones:

Alright, back to answering you:

Most important of all: I’m sorry if I gave off the impression I was trying to dictate your speech. It was in no way my intention to do that as I strongly believe that giving off that censoring vibe is not the correct way to approach a healthy discussion. With that said, my sincerest apologies.

I disagree. Dealing with Psychological patients, most of them are victims of verbal assault – often paired with other problems. The damage is real, and just today a woman was breaking down because she had had two abortions a while ago and one of our most experienced doctors told her to literally: “forget about it and get a cat.” Yikes, Dr. Woman, use your empathy, you know? :no_mouth:

I’m genuinely happy to hear – no sarcasm, I don’t know how to phrase this any other way, honest – you don’t have first-hand accounts of verbal violence towards you or those around you to change your view. I think that witnessing that is the saddest possible way to come to the conclusion that words hold power, and oftentimes in a very dangerous and damaging way.

I will reiterate that was not my intention, I’m truly sorry that out of all the valuable linguistic explanation I gave you, this was the lasting impression. I was hoping we – as in we, Chronies – could analyze the deeper meaning behind words and discuss that in a healthy way, not to make myself sound like I was directly attacking you.

My post was not about you or directed at you. It was meant for the community as a whole and to enrich the ongoing discussion. The only portion directed at you specifically starts with “PS:”, and it seems like you have nothing to say about that bit that took me so long to write.

I hope this clears any confusion.

Nothing! I went in there blind, thinking it would be interesting to share and encouraging other to use that tool. It always helps me when I’m into linguistic discussions and talking about word appropriation with colleagues.

There are two word fields. You can insert both there and see the output! Why don’t give it a shot yourself? :wink:


Fam, I think this is uncalled for. We know Fraggles has strong opinions – as far as what we can tell in this humble forum, of course, I don’t know him in person. That isn’t a bad or a good thing, it’s just a personality trait. :woman_shrugging:

I think we all went too far into having a nice little talk, and in my experience that oftentimes derails it into a big nasty discussion instead. So let’s stay cool at avoid talking about >each other< when the topic has, frankly, nothing to do with us personally.

We’re all sitting here talking about an anime/manga genre some of us – but not all, and I can speak only for myself here of course, no judgment on my end – watch/read and discussing the sentiments of people who are not here to give their opinion – if any of you are transsexual and I’m assuming, I deeply apologize – whatever our thoughts may be about them and their opinion/feelings.

That ain’t very cool, overall. That’s why I kinda tried to shift things to linguistics a bit but failed.

I give up trying to have this circular talk lmao and I hope we can all hang the towel on this little argument of ours. It can lead nowhere good without information we can’t possibly attain live – + it be derailing this fine thread good, fellas.

For clarity, this means I won’t be posting any more on this thread after this post. :yellow_heart:

As I suggested before, I think a good, healthy, alternative to the genre is “Mistaken Identity”. I read someone provide this suggestion online and thought it was pretty cool. Use it to you heart’s content if you wanna! :+1: