Epic Games vs Apple and Google

Previously on the show:

posted by @GeekInUndies:

posted by @Enki:


response to @GeekInUndies’s vid:


next chapter:

Apple come across like a benevolent parent here: you can come back anytime, but first you have to fix the shit you broke and agree to follow the rules :joy:


but wait, there’s (a little bit) more:


He even disproves his own claim of being misrepresented in the emails he shows. His very own emails shows that everything Apple says is correct.


I think he speaks specifically about not wanting a deal specifically for Fortnite only but asking Apple to give that same deal to all iOS developers

he claims that Apple says that Epic wanted the deal for themselves only

more dumb shenanigans:


my disdain for sweeney and epic has just grown the more Tim’s ego flexes, like he couldn’t even keep his sht together enough to even proper formulate the copy pasta responses to where he sends apple emails about the terms on android :+1:
then the pathetic way he instantly tries to shut down retorts about “but you do the same bro - epic store cough*” or happily enjoys the weaponizing of fortnites fanbase white knight defending the hypocritical pathetic double-standard he’s rolling on. Going through his twitter feed probably made me vomit enough to shave a few pounds off


I really hope all the actors here get their asses kicked. Epic, Apple and Google are in the same tier of “harmful to customers megacorp” and I’d be happy to see a world without them


Y’all have to admit that all this drama is pretty fun :joy:. I can’t wait to see what happens next.


In the email he sent to Apple, he says that “he hopes” that Apple offers the same deal for others, but I don’t believe for one second that if Apple said that they would only make an exception for Epic, Tim Sweeney wouldn’t accept it.

My interpretation of that it’s that he’s asking for a special deal for Epic first and foremost, and that other companies having a similiar deal would be a nice to have.


I would like to comment on this. But there looks like so much legalese to sort through that I can’t figure out who I want to support. Dedicating a few hours to figuring out what is happening is too much dedication for me. Even I am not that stubborn.

So here’s the question. Will either side winning benefit the customer? Because based on the very little I understand, seems to be no or maybe?

If it’s just companies trying to sue each other to decide on how to grab more money from each other, then this whole drama doesn’t involve gamers.


I would say yes Apple winning is the one that benefits customers. In short if Epic wins, the concept of the wall garden will essentially become illegal. This might sound like a good idea at first because maybe you, just like me, really don’t like walled gardens. However some people do, a fair number of people who chose to buy an iPhone does so because they want that curated walled garden experience. If Epic wins then all those consumers will lose that option and the market will not be able to offer them that.

For me however nothing will really change, a product offering I didn’t want wont be available anymore but I have gained nothing. Epic winning means less choice for consumers not more.


Neither. This is a fight between giants over which one gets your money. Neither one winning leads to benefits for you.
Epic’s trying to spin this into something that benefits consumers through trickle down economics, but we’ve seen how well that works - we’re not going to get significant savings or better games from this, Epic’s just going to get more cash that it can spend on milking more money from us.


Microsoft decides to chime in to support Epic’s suit for the temporary restraining order because think of all the children who will be so disappointed when Unreal engine wont work on their iPhones.

In short the argument goes Unreal engine is too important and too many people have too much value invested in UE for it to be allowed to go unsupported on iOS. Which you might think sounds reasonable, but that doesn’t take into account what kind of claim this is and how this situation arose. Epic is suing for injunction to prevent “irreparable damages” that it caused itself to begin with because it decided to breach a contract which was entirely unnecessary for filing the original suit in the first place.

Had Epic simply filed the original suit then everything could have just proceeded as normal, fortnite and UE could still have been available on iOS for the duration of the litigation. Even now Apple offers the solution of doing exactly that.

Any damage Fortnite, Unreal engine or any 3rd parties suffers as result of this is entirely the fault of Epic.


Even if that were true, how would it negatively affect Epic? Like, just let Apple ban Unreal and watch them crash and burn as devs stop making games for iOS. Wouldn’t that put Epic in a better negotiating position than right now?


Epic has finally managed to make an argument that might have some actual reason and logic to it, but it’s about contract minutiae so it’s going to get messy. For full details please see:

Basically Epic is now arguing 2 things. The dev teams that work on the Unreal Engine and Fortnite are two different legal entities that enter into different contracts and Apple can’t ban one for the transgressions for the other.

On Apple’s side we have 2 types of contracts, the one you enter into by downloading the dev tools which state that you as an employee of a company agrees to these things on behalf of you AND your employer. This may be argued that it doesn’t matter which group under Epic you’re in, Epic as a whole is considered party to the contract. Then there’s the contract your company enters into in order to be allowed to put stuff on the App store. It’s the app store contract that Epic willfully breached and Epic argues that the App store contract does not have any bearing on the dev tools contracts.

Apple in turn showcases that Epic’s supposed company split is not as clear as Epic claims and both groups under Epic has the same tax org number and both contracts are signed by the same person. They also highlight some language in the dev tool contracts about agreeing to not creating tools that would “interfere with any security digital signing, DRM, content protection, verification…” which is what they want to hold Epic as a single entity to. Even if the transgression was made through fortnite they argue that Epic breached this part of the dev tools contract as well and therefor they can ban Epic in it’s entirety from using those tools.

This one is going to be something the court really will have to ponder for a bit I suspect. It’s not a very clear cut thing and many very well paid contract lawyers will probably spend a lot of billable hours hashing out what the contracts actually can or can’t do.

That’s pretty much what the wager is on. Whether the unreal engine’s value is greater than that of the iOS user base or not. Apple is betting on Epic’s unwillingness to lose the iOS user base for both fortnite and the unreal engine, Epic’s first move was possibly made not thinking Apple would do that and their most recent response seems to suggest they don’t think apple CAN do that either.

I don’t really know how big the unreal’s market share for mobile games is, microsoft listed ONE entire game that uses UE on iOS, if they had more I bet they’d list them.

So question is who will take more damage, UE for being unsupported on iOS and therefor developers who want to make fully cross platform compatible games wont use UE. Or Apple by not having any UE games on their app store. Now I don’t know for sure but I don’t think iOS has ever really been marketed as a platform particularly well suited for gaming to begin with and their user base is for the most part just interested in having an iPhone and nothing else.


Unity strikes back through stocks lol. Its unrelated but I was reading Morning Brew and the article has related it somewhat to this case


A judge has now spoken on the preliminary injunction and essentially decided that it’s fine for Apple to ban fortnite but they don’t find that “Epic international” have breached dev tools contracts and orders Apple to maintain those. The part of Epic that makes the Unreal Engine should therefor be allowed continued access to Apple’s developer programs and tools.

As usual, for more details please see

There’s a couple of curious things in the language of the statements however that makes things a little tricky. The judge granted Epic the part where they sought to limit Apple to take “any adverse action” against them. The judge also finds that Apple’s offer of allowing fortnite back on the appstore if they reverse their contract breach a good idea. However the whole “no adverse action” thing kind of ruins that because now IF Epic does comply, reset the payment option thing and Apple reinstates fortnite to the appstore there is nothing that stops Epic from simply redoing the payment option thing but now Apple can’t re-ban fortnite.

While I don’t think it’s likely that Epic will hold off on their crusade here and comply with Apple’s requirements to get back into the appstore, Apple has good reasons to not allow fortnite into the appstore at all for as long as this temporary injunction is in force.

This should be the last bit in this story for the foreseeable future, this whole thing has been in order to determine the situation into which this lawsuit will be launched and now that it’s been established we’re heading into the usual slow lane of the court system. Next update potentially in about a month and then probably nothing for years.


Epic argues that more than its reputation has been harmed: “Daily active users on iOS have declined by over 60% since Fortnite’s removal from the App Store”


I dunno, I think Apple would know how many active users they have more than Epic. Unless Epic is skimming their servers. That would make for an interesting development if Apple could prove that.