Epic Games vs Apple and Google

[M00]

Previously on the show:

@Gnuffi

so apparently Epic decided to expand the “muh no 30% cut” frontier

Fortnite for Android has also been kicked off the Google Play Store - The Verge

@Enki

And it continues

Epic says Apple threatens ‘catastrophic’ response in two weeks if Fortnite doesn’t comply with rules - The Verge

@M00

this started as something pretty funny, but it seems this is indeed escalating into something which might reach insane proportions. If neither backs down and they don’t find a compromise, this might probably hugely affect not only thousands of games, programs, and apps but also lead to the creation of new laws (or at least legal precedents) and their effects related to competition, free market access, and monopoly for decades to come.

Epic claiming it will be harmed is not rly relevant, i feel, lol, but this would indeed have huge impacts for whoever uses their products (both producers and consumers) and especially their engine on Apple platforms.

@Fraggles

@M00

If neither backs down and they don’t find a compromise

There is no place for a compromise, in fact as laid out in the lawsuit itself Epic says they and other big actors do get offered deals with better revenue splits but that they don’t want to take those. They keep claiming it’s all about breaking up “the monopolies” which again only reflects that Epic don’t know what they’re talking about. Or they do know they’re wrong they just think you won’t realize as was the case when they started calling steam a monopoly and then went ahead and monopolized games away from steam.

IF this lawsuit is actually found in favour of Epic then the results will be catastrophic for sure. But they really don’t have a very well supported argument, the laws they reference don’t actually support their claims and the whole thing should be thrown out in a preliminary hearing or something.

If you want to hear more details on this I would recommend Hoeg Law going through it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y04zz5g1_08 That’s about an hour analyzing the first apple lawsuit. He has a bit over 3h in total talking about this situation as it developed over this week, if you’re really interested.

@Gnuffi

it’s funny the sht they claim, monopoly etc - when that’s what they themselves are after, at least pc games retail wise

“unfair business practice” - gee, you mean like making games exclusive on an established open platform for a year?

i know it’s not a 1:1, and their epic store is a bit unrelated to this situation, but it is just slightly funny the minor parallels that can be drawn if one tried a little word twisting

@M00

@Fraggles

if you’re really interested

I’m not that interested nor do i have the time for that anyways. I’ll just see whatever happens and read the bullet points

Edit: If it is as you say though, and Epic has no ground to stand on, then wtf are Epic smoking Seems like a pretty naive and dumb move to make (and then wtf did they expect would happen ), and then i fully understand Apple just respond like that, and i imagine Epic will just have to go back on their decisions and swallow their pride cuz whatever happens, it can’t go the way it is going now for them, I’d imagine.

@M00

@Gnuffi

“unfair business practice” - gee, you mean like making games exclusive on an established open platform for a year?

yeah, i do find their rhetoric a bit weird given they do that, and they very well know gamers hate that

@Fraggles

@M00

Seems like a pretty naive and dumb move to make (and then wtf did they expect would happen )

Amusing conspiracy theory time!

Epic is acting on behalf of Tencent whom the US have recently started acting against with 2 specific actions limiting other companies to trade with some of their massive mobile platforms. The whole thing is only aimed at tying up the two primary American cellphone companies and providers of cellphone applications in a legal and public opinions battle trying to paint both market leaders as bad actors while portraying themselves as champions of the people as they launch their own line of cellphones(probably huwaei or xiaomi) and/or a mobile OS. They don’t need neither Apple or google to fall or be broken up, it’s all a publicity stunt to get a foot into the door and they’re hoping to rouse their largely under age fan base to jump aboard once they launch their own thing.

Or maybe Tim Sweeney just have too much money and too few marbles left and think that he can do whatever he wants by just throwing enough cash around.

@DontBeSilly

Funny. Epic again is pretending to be a ‘good guy’. Same thing happened few years ago with steam so yeah. Time to think of some new and original ways to make headlines i guess.

Few things in the world are more funny than multi-billion $ corporations fighting each other for mere millions…

@Fraggles

Well this thing has gotten even more dumb now. Apple responded and told Epic that they’ve been banned from the appstore for a list of reasons specified in the contracts and license agreements entered into. Giving Epic a generous 14 days to remedy a list of issues to avoid being terminated. The whole IAP thing being the first obvious one but they also obfuscated and lied to apple about what the update they wanted to push did and contained so that’s a big breach of trust and contract. Apple decided that not only do they not want fortnite anymore, they don’t want to work with Epic anymore. Canceling their license and access to Apple devtools and support entirely. This will pretty much mean the unreal engine wont be supported on iOS or any other Apple system for that matter. Well Epic COULD still try very hard to maintain compatibility without any of the dev tools or early access to new OS versions or documentation, the engine would always be a step behind everything else though and it’d require a lot of software engineering skills on their part. Possible, but expensive. Good luck epic.

Well here comes the stupidity, Epic’s response. They’ve gone and tried to sue for an injunction against Apple demanding that the court forces Apple to not only restore Epic’s access to the appstore with fortnite’s update as is, force Apple to continue licensing them dev tools, provide support and all other benefits they’ve enjoyed through this contract and relationship they’ve decided to break. Because “we’re certain we’ll win this anyway and if we get punished by Apple like this it’ll cause us ‘irreparable harm’”. Of course there’s a LOT of flowery BS going on where they try to paint Apple as some sort of abuser here and talking at length about how access to cellphones, no iPhones in particular, is an “Essential Facility” and that’s why they have to allow Fortnite and in extension pretty much any other software on their system. Also of course this means that anyone should be able to own an iPhone and we need to institute government programs to help those who can’t afford an iPhone or iPad to do so. Not just any cellphone, which kind of exists already, their argument fails if they don’t mean iPhones in particular. It still fails because it’s stupid though.

They even went and trawled facebook posts for people expressing annoyance over not having fortnite on their phone anymore and included screenshots of those in a legal document, as if that proved anything. Epic is really taking this to a twitter feud level of discourse.

The short of it is pretty much that Epic want the court to deny Apple the rights they have to decide who they do business with, who they enter into contracts with.

@M00

@Fraggles

the rights they have to decide who they do business with, who they enter into contracts with.

there are precedents for that though. Governments do sometimes step in when it comes to preventing monopolies etc. or indeed providing necessary and essential access or preventing exclusion for people from certain products in certain cases (even though technically by doing so they also deny them the right to do business with whom they please or how they please or sell their company to whom they please, which is also a right you normally have, but then they do so to protect the general public, and in some cases also to prevent other companies from going bankrupt)

im not saying this would be one potential such case, just that it does happen

a practical example of that we all know is ofc what happened with Windows Microsoft back in the day, and i’ve also come across an example recently in my job, where they spoke of how a certain country might force the phone companies who have established internet networks (the physical lines, fiber especially) to keep providing internet access for the phone companies who dont have their own networks because otherwise those will go bankrupt because no one will use them (those other companies not having the means to now go and develop those networks)

again, just examples, not saying this here is the same at all; i rly dont have the time to delve into it more than what i read here, and i doubt i’d be able to rly make a proper judgment in all that legal shit regardless

but this year keeps getting crazier it seems

@Fraggles

That’s really not what’s going on though. They are trying to make it sound like it is. But they are arguing that iPhones in particular AND Fortnite itself is so important to daily life for the population at large that it would cause societal harm if the court did not stop apple from dehosting Fortnite on iOS.

Anti-trust courts can indeed put on hold actions taken by companies to give the court time to investigate what the full ramifications would be. Injunctions however are a different beast, they are a tool the court can use to stop something or stop someone from doing something without trial because allowing that to happen would cause “irreparable harm”. That term does not mean “lose a lot of money” in fact money is largely not considered relevant for something like this.

posted by @GeekInUndies:

posted by @Enki:

response to @GeekInUndies’s vid:

@Gnuffi

the way they are trying to take this to the “court of public opinion” with “muh Apple bad/Epic GoodGuy” really makes me hope they lose this lawsuit - big.

It’s ridiculous disgusting behavior to attempt and deliberately rile up your fan- and playerbase over something like this, and that “you” caused yourself, and on purpose

Hell i don’t just hope they lose, i hope apple/google counter sues or gets sanctions on Epic’s ass and that Epic has to limp home in a bend-over walk of shame with money and future prospects lost; well deserved

@smellyworm

With this Epic/Apple lawsuit talk I think it would be a good idea to have a dedicated topic to discuss further on this topic.

Before that, I just like to add that for me, as long as it doesn’t do any major harm onto the consumers at the end of the day on either side of the coin, I couldn’t care less about this lawsuit. I predict that it wouldn’t really go anywhere and if it does, Epic would lose, Apple stocks go up even more than they already have, and everyone will laugh at Epic till the cows come home.

At least that is how I feel is the most realistic and maybe reasonable conclusion from the lawsuit. OK, the laughing at Epic part is an exaggeration but the rest seems to me the most realistic given their size + Epic’s ownership with Tencent, a company owned by and is connected to one of the most hated countries, will only make things worse on their side so in essence they do have a disadvantage.

@Danacscott

@smellyworm

have a dedicated topic to discuss further on this topic.

Second that thought. Two big boys are arguing in their sandbox. We get it.

[M00]

next chapter:

Apple Moves To Block Fortnite's Temporary Return Over Epic's "Self-Inflicted...

Apple come across like a benevolent parent here: you can come back anytime, but first you have to fix the shit you broke and agree to follow the rules

[M00]

but wait, there’s (a little bit) more:

Epic Posts Emails To Prove Apple Is Misrepresenting Its Intentions With Fortnite

[Fraggles]

He even disproves his own claim of being misrepresented in the emails he shows. His very own emails shows that everything Apple says is correct.

[M00]

I think he speaks specifically about not wanting a deal specifically for Fortnite only but asking Apple to give that same deal to all iOS developers

he claims that Apple says that Epic wanted the deal for themselves only

more dumb shenanigans:

Fortnite Holding "Free Fortnite Cup" To Promote Apple And Google Suit

[Gnuffi]

my disdain for sweeney and epic has just grown the more Tim’s ego flexes, like he couldn’t even keep his sht together enough to even proper formulate the copy pasta responses to where he sends apple emails about the terms on android
then the pathetic way he instantly tries to shut down retorts about “but you do the same bro - epic store cough*” or happily enjoys the weaponizing of fortnites fanbase white knight defending the hypocritical pathetic double-standard he’s rolling on. Going through his twitter feed probably made me vomit enough to shave a few pounds off

[DecadentHamster]

I really hope all the actors here get their asses kicked. Epic, Apple and Google are in the same tier of “harmful to customers megacorp” and I’d be happy to see a world without them

[FacuBlues]

Y’all have to admit that all this drama is pretty fun . I can’t wait to see what happens next.

[spinoute]

In the email he sent to Apple, he says that “he hopes” that Apple offers the same deal for others, but I don’t believe for one second that if Apple said that they would only make an exception for Epic, Tim Sweeney wouldn’t accept it.

My interpretation of that it’s that he’s asking for a special deal for Epic first and foremost, and that other companies having a similiar deal would be a nice to have.

[GDBringer]

I would like to comment on this. But there looks like so much legalese to sort through that I can’t figure out who I want to support. Dedicating a few hours to figuring out what is happening is too much dedication for me. Even I am not that stubborn.

So here’s the question. Will either side winning benefit the customer? Because based on the very little I understand, seems to be no or maybe?

If it’s just companies trying to sue each other to decide on how to grab more money from each other, then this whole drama doesn’t involve gamers.

[Fraggles]

I would say yes Apple winning is the one that benefits customers. In short if Epic wins, the concept of the wall garden will essentially become illegal. This might sound like a good idea at first because maybe you, just like me, really don’t like walled gardens. However some people do, a fair number of people who chose to buy an iPhone does so because they want that curated walled garden experience. If Epic wins then all those consumers will lose that option and the market will not be able to offer them that.

For me however nothing will really change, a product offering I didn’t want wont be available anymore but I have gained nothing. Epic winning means less choice for consumers not more.

[Fraggles]

Microsoft decides to chime in to support Epic’s suit for the temporary restraining order because think of all the children who will be so disappointed when Unreal engine wont work on their iPhones.

Unreal! Microsoft Joins Epic's Fight Against Apple (VL295)

In short the argument goes Unreal engine is too important and too many people have too much value invested in UE for it to be allowed to go unsupported on iOS. Which you might think sounds reasonable, but that doesn’t take into account what kind of claim this is and how this situation arose. Epic is suing for injunction to prevent “irreparable damages” that it caused itself to begin with because it decided to breach a contract which was entirely unnecessary for filing the original suit in the first place.

Had Epic simply filed the original suit then everything could have just proceeded as normal, fortnite and UE could still have been available on iOS for the duration of the litigation. Even now Apple offers the solution of doing exactly that.

Any damage Fortnite, Unreal engine or any 3rd parties suffers as result of this is entirely the fault of Epic.

[Imaynotbehere4long]

@Fraggles

the argument goes Unreal engine is too important and too many people have too much value invested in UE for it to be allowed to go unsupported on iOS.

Even if that were true, how would it negatively affect Epic? Like, just let Apple ban Unreal and watch them crash and burn as devs stop making games for iOS. Wouldn’t that put Epic in a better negotiating position than right now?

[Fraggles]

Epic has finally managed to make an argument that might have some actual reason and logic to it, but it’s about contract minutiae so it’s going to get messy. For full details please see:

Epic Fires Back At Apple: "Unlawful Flexing of Monopoly Power"(VL296)

Basically Epic is now arguing 2 things. The dev teams that work on the Unreal Engine and Fortnite are two different legal entities that enter into different contracts and Apple can’t ban one for the transgressions for the other.

On Apple’s side we have 2 types of contracts, the one you enter into by downloading the dev tools which state that you as an employee of a company agrees to these things on behalf of you AND your employer. This may be argued that it doesn’t matter which group under Epic you’re in, Epic as a whole is considered party to the contract. Then there’s the contract your company enters into in order to be allowed to put stuff on the App store. It’s the app store contract that Epic willfully breached and Epic argues that the App store contract does not have any bearing on the dev tools contracts.

Apple in turn showcases that Epic’s supposed company split is not as clear as Epic claims and both groups under Epic has the same tax org number and both contracts are signed by the same person. They also highlight some language in the dev tool contracts about agreeing to not creating tools that would “interfere with any security digital signing, DRM, content protection, verification…” which is what they want to hold Epic as a single entity to. Even if the transgression was made through fortnite they argue that Epic breached this part of the dev tools contract as well and therefor they can ban Epic in it’s entirety from using those tools.

This one is going to be something the court really will have to ponder for a bit I suspect. It’s not a very clear cut thing and many very well paid contract lawyers will probably spend a lot of billable hours hashing out what the contracts actually can or can’t do.

@Imaynotbehere4long

Even if that were true, how would it negatively affect Epic? Like, just let Apple ban Unreal and watch them crash and burn as devs stop making games for iOS. Wouldn’t that put Epic in a better negotiating position than right now?

That’s pretty much what the wager is on. Whether the unreal engine’s value is greater than that of the iOS user base or not. Apple is betting on Epic’s unwillingness to lose the iOS user base for both fortnite and the unreal engine, Epic’s first move was possibly made not thinking Apple would do that and their most recent response seems to suggest they don’t think apple CAN do that either.

I don’t really know how big the unreal’s market share for mobile games is, microsoft listed ONE entire game that uses UE on iOS, if they had more I bet they’d list them.

So question is who will take more damage, UE for being unsupported on iOS and therefor developers who want to make fully cross platform compatible games wont use UE. Or Apple by not having any UE games on their app store. Now I don’t know for sure but I don’t think iOS has ever really been marketed as a platform particularly well suited for gaming to begin with and their user base is for the most part just interested in having an iPhone and nothing else.

[smellyworm]

Unity strikes back through stocks lol. Its unrelated but I was reading Morning Brew and the article has related it somewhat to this case

Gaming Engine Unity Software Files to Go Public on NYSE

[Fraggles]

A judge has now spoken on the preliminary injunction and essentially decided that it’s fine for Apple to ban fortnite but they don’t find that “Epic international” have breached dev tools contracts and orders Apple to maintain those. The part of Epic that makes the Unreal Engine should therefor be allowed continued access to Apple’s developer programs and tools.

As usual, for more details please see

Epic v Apple: "Fortnite Out, Unreal In!" Reading Between the Lines (VL297)

There’s a couple of curious things in the language of the statements however that makes things a little tricky. The judge granted Epic the part where they sought to limit Apple to take “any adverse action” against them. The judge also finds that Apple’s offer of allowing fortnite back on the appstore if they reverse their contract breach a good idea. However the whole “no adverse action” thing kind of ruins that because now IF Epic does comply, reset the payment option thing and Apple reinstates fortnite to the appstore there is nothing that stops Epic from simply redoing the payment option thing but now Apple can’t re-ban fortnite.

While I don’t think it’s likely that Epic will hold off on their crusade here and comply with Apple’s requirements to get back into the appstore, Apple has good reasons to not allow fortnite into the appstore at all for as long as this temporary injunction is in force.

This should be the last bit in this story for the foreseeable future, this whole thing has been in order to determine the situation into which this lawsuit will be launched and now that it’s been established we’re heading into the usual slow lane of the court system. Next update potentially in about a month and then probably nothing for years.

[Enki]

Read Epic’s new, full argument why a court should force Apple to reinstate...

Epic argues that more than its reputation has been harmed: “Daily active users on iOS have declined by over 60% since Fortnite’s removal from the App Store”

[Pylinaer]

I dunno, I think Apple would know how many active users they have more than Epic. Unless Epic is skimming their servers. That would make for an interesting development if Apple could prove that.

[M00]

Apple Seeks Damages From Epic In Newest Court Filing

[M00]

Epic Games' Lawsuit Is Designed To Reinvigorate Fortnite, Claims Apple