Steam does allow you to back up games locally. You could if you wanted to back up all your games and store them on DVDs or a rack full of hard drives. Steam and publishers have a responsibility towards their customers and should steam just up and die with no warning then it’d be up to publishers to provide you with alternative ways of accessing the games you own.
Weather they will or not will likely be a pretty huge court case. “The gaming world Vs. the games industry”. Americans might be just straight out of luck as there’s no specific protection laws saying anything particular about digital licenses. But the EU courts did establish that digital software licenses are protected under the same laws that governs all other goods.
So you DO own them, the files belong to you, you can do whatever you want to the files.Not to be confused with owning the IP rights to the contents of the files though.
Cheating online though is a whole other thing, that’s about a service not a good, buying a product does not mean guaranteed access to an accompanying service. Any multiplayer server is a service to which whoever runs the server can deny you access, customer protection laws also governs sale of services of course but they’re different from goods.
The fact that mostly Steam games required Steam DRM + other DRMs added by Developers, backing up them helps nothing tbh, there is no point of storing them but can’t play. Maybe if that day comes, Valve + thousand Developers/Publishers will sit down together and remove all the DRMs? Who knows, but I doubt that, there are no promises.
For me owning something is a very strong word, so seem like we have different definitions about it because clearly I can’t do whatever I want with the game because of law. More than that, I can’t called it own if my licenses can be taken back and I may lose the ability to access them anytime,
When you buy a book, there is nothing legally stopping you from altering your purchase. Its yours. You can draw in it, you can remove pages, you can write in it, you can do whatever you want. It is your personal property. The only thing you can’t do is reproduce it. I want to see sources that claim that when I buy a disc, I don’t own that and that I have no rights to the content of said disc.
As for Steam vanishing… Valve has stated in the past there are measures in place to disable the DRM in the event of their service going down.
You own the book, the physical book, not the content inside the book. Same as disk and digital games.
Can I ask the source where Valve stated that? Seem like I miss their agreement at some point.
(One minute, let me rethink this. The discussion is about the disc and files itself. Ok give me a minute. Feel free to read my edits, but I’m retracting those since it’s irrelevant to the actual discussion.)
Okay, I’ll concede that you own the disc and the license to use the contents of the disc when you buy a game, and while they can’t confiscate the disc even if there’s a practical and cost-effective way to do it (not that there is one), they CAN legally revoke the license and prevent the disc from working if the technology was there. Usually games have a Terms & Agreements document that we agree to that would bind us to those rules, and developers/publishers can create a civil case against us if we were to play the game without a valid license (basically piracy). Thing is, technology wasn’t around to enforce such Terms & Agreements, so while it’s legally binding, we can mess with the game files any way we want, with or without a license (keeping the disc is fine without a license, but using it to install/run the game means the dev/publisher can sue you for it if they had nothing better to do). With digital distribution, they now have the tools to invalidate your license, if the Terms & Agreements that you’ve signed include a clause for termination (and they always do unless they’re idiots) and you happened to fall under the clause for whatever reason.
As none of this is being protected under criminal law, these are more civil issues so they’re enforced through contracts. Whether it’s signed, verbal, or clicking on the “OK” button after checking the box that says you’ve bothered to read it.
However, I do recall several regions having a defensive clause where you are allowed one backup copy of the original game you’ve purchased. That said, I don’t believe it prevents you from going to court if the devs/publishers have nothing better to do. It’s a defense you need to prove in court that you purchased the game, and the pirated copy is actually a legit single backup. Nothing to do with the disc/files thing, but wanted to mention how you are allowed to copy the files on the disc you own as long as you only have one working backup copy at any given time. So if the backup gets wrecked, I think you’re still allowed to make a new backup.
Anyway, my main point is that developers and publishers have ALWAYS had the right to revoke your license to use their software, but they never had the tools to do so until now. I’m pretty sure even the Atari 2600 had such agreements binding to only give you a license to use the software.
It was a random comment by a Steam support tech a few years ago. Unfortunately it isn’t codified in the terms of service. But the fact they had said it suggests there is a kill switch somewhere in their DRM scheme, which means it could theoretically be found, even if Valve never officially reveals it.
(https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/18mzcn/i_asked_steam_support_what_happens_to_my_games_if/)
I didn’t ask you to rephrase what you said, @K16 . I asked for sources. I can’t find anything to back up your statements. You may very well be right. I don’t know. I have been looking around and I can’t find anything concrete anywhere. But perhaps I am not putting the right words into Google.
@Neighborbob As long as Valve hasn’t write it down in the User Agreement, we can’t trust what someone said or rumors somewhere.
For me what @K16 and I said are so obvious that it’s just like human need water to live, a very normal logic thinking. Asking a source for it is like wanting a proof showing why 1+1=2 tbh.
I saw this comment from the thread you linked, and it’s exactly what I said:
The fact that we don’t really own what we bought scare a lot of people, but that’s the truth.
Seem like it’s quite hard to change our mind at this point, so maybe we should end this small discussion here?
No, the fact that you don’t own your physical property that you purchased isn’t as obvious as the need for water. Copyright law says I can’t reproduce or redistribute the goods that I bought, but I would like a source that says that at any point Blizzard can demand that I return my copy of Diablo 2 to them. I am not trying to change your mind on this, I am just asking for sources to back it. If its so obvious, finding a source should be easy. I can find plenty of articles explaining why 1+1=2. I can’t find any articles saying Blizzard owns my disc of Diablo 2.
On the digital side, I agree that it isn’t very clear cut and it mostly relies on Valve being generous before they kill the lights for good. I am not really arguing about ownership on the digital front. That is a legal nightmare thats impossible to decipher due to the lack of any solid court cases on the matter.
feel like this thread is going way off topic to where it might deserve a discussion on its own
but also, you might not be reading fully what @K16 wrote
so @Neighborbob
you might own the disc, and as such are free to do almost anything you wish to do with it, including resale, destruction and anything that isn’t limited under law, such as piracy
but, you do not own the “content” on the disc, the disc is merely a method for you to use/take advantage of the license afforded you, since digital distribution wasn’t there back when
nowadays they fully can, and WILL, revoke that license when they see fit, thus rendering your disc all but “useless” in some cases
not to mention this applies even more and easier to licenses solely afforded digitally without the accompanying physical disc, hence why you don’t “own” anything on steam, (whether or not they theoretically might will circumvent their own drm in case of a shutdown is another hopeful conspiracy matter for another day).
This doesn’t just apply to steam but any digital platform/registration, Origin, MS, Sony, etc etc, even Rockstar were happy revoking your GTA V games and just saying “tough noogies, buy a new one”
they most definitely can and will this day and age, and while they couldn’t as easily in the olden days, they still technically had the same right, in most cases, because you mostly never bought the product itself, merely the right to use it, a right they kept the right to revoke at anytime
if you want sources, go read any EULA or ToS (which in most cases are juuuust legally binding enough) for anything game related you ever bought, most games/software clearly state what you are getting is a license to use only, even those bought on disc (usually written in a physical manual or some place if not “on” the disc)
companies, especially software/game publishers are masters of covering their arse to make sure they retain all rights possible, even if consumer laws demands there are certain things they can’t retain, hence why you can resell a physical disc, but not a digital copy, and you could even resell a physical disc with a revoked license making your sale “fraudulent” if you didn’t disclose such to whomever you sold it to
They are truly great at making sure most things are covered, they love their little disclaimers and whatnots
I’m pretty sure the official word is that you own the physical copy of the game, not the game itself. You bought Diablo 2, but Blizzard owns it and can totally just abandon BATTLENET if they so desire.
As for later games, this unfortunately becomes more complicated as these online services are what activates the game itself. For example, with The Division, I might own it physically on 5 CD-ROMs, but that doesn’t matter. I own this physical copy, but Ubisoft reserves the right to pull the plug on this always-online game’s DRM and the uPlay service… effectively turning it into a 50GB deadweight of New York themed game assets. Case in point, Darkspore.
With a digital copy, you’re buying the rights to use the game, not to actually play it. If they shut down the DRM client, tough s@#%. Thankfully Valve and EA have both responded in the past (EA through a customer service rep, which is significantly less official than the Gaben of course) stating that you’ll be able to back up your games.
In the end, I think it’s just a legal get-out-of-jail-free card for if services go down and somebody goes through the courts pissed off that he didn’t download his games in time.
@Neighborbob Oh I know. I wanted to rephrase what I said, because what I originally said didn’t even involve physical discs and how ownership of that works, so it was completely irrelevant. So I rewrote my message to actually answer the question, which is to say…
Reads what Gnuffi said.
Never mind, @Gnuffi said exactly what I wanted to say. And I also agree about this thread being derailed, on which I apologize for as I have contributed to this derailing.
And @m0n0 is right about the general fact that we don’t own our games, or rather, we were never supposed to. Same for movies, books, etc. But the convenience and practicality (including the business sense of infuriating your customers) isn’t there to revoke your access. Well, not until digital distribution came along. If anything, End User License Agreements and Terms of Service Agreements actually have meaning now. Keep in mind, the fact remains that angering your customers won’t get you very far in business. So honestly, I wouldn’t expect this to happen until the company chooses bankruptcy, and intends on opening some other business under a new name.
@CptMold Honestly I’m not sure what developers/publishers will do, now that there is a way to enforce their EULA/ToS. So far, I’ve only seen it being used against cheaters and pirates.
It’s always the same story. EULAs are a big “in case of x or y disasters, we can take m or n actions without getting in trouble.”
You’re right that it gets used against cheaters/pirates. Otherwise, Ubi, EA, Valve, etc. could face legal action after people sink money into a game, then hack it and receive a ban or bought an illicit key from Grassy3Ass or some other shady vendor.
I don’t think they’ll actually do a grand cut-off or anything, I’m just saying they legally said they could in case worst comes to worst (e.g. Ubisoft is bought by Vivendi, a rather well known hater of everything decent).
Well, it was a good point, but not the main one. EULAs these days generally say “if servers go down and you lose your game, it’s your problem.” It’s the reason why I can’t sue Neo-Atari for the absolute s@#$show that was Minimum’s launch (a rush out of early access to the detriment of HHS), and if Steam later gets bought by Vivendi (oh God please no) then abruptly shut down, we can’t do S@#%.
question, why you keep referring to Vivendi as a “threat”,
i think the last ones Valve would sell to, given their history, would be Vivendi (not to mention the whole American vs French deal ),
hell even Ubisoft is fighting against Vivendi control, and they are already scum, AND french, so would have seemed like a natural pairing, yet not
now Tencent slowly creeping in, with their many monies, that might be tempting to sell to,
you know if Valve wasn’t so content being a private business that is, and considering they have yet been to cash out on public trading, seems sorta unlikely that type of Vivendi “sellout” would go on first
personally i think it be more likely GabeN dies to health issues first and then Valve gets carved up,
if that is even possible, since there might be stipulations in place to put a damper on that, so the monolith doesn’t gets destroyed by some “evil” faceless corporation and their commanders. I get the feel Valve like their “solo” Giant status, not to mention they are already making billions, so why bother with a few more
Have over 500 games on Steam, as I use it as my main gaming client, besides piratebay(ahum, not really appropriate). Have some games in GOG and Origin but not much.
I don’t really care what client does the game use, as long as I can make a shortcut to my desktop of the said game(most clients can do that :)).
I really like seeing my games on the desktop. Helps me decide what to play or what I’ve abandoned half way through like the miserable thing I am…
Anyways, don’t really care. My desktop acts as a “unified library” so not a single problem with the amount of clients.
Most of the games end on Steam by the way, mainly because of the huge variety it offers and it’s market share and popularity. Like most deals (if not on Steam) on some online stores use mainly Steam keys so…
I mention Vivendi because they’re one of the few companies that I can say without a single doubt are scummy enough to dump your library off a cliff and laugh. I don’t think they’re an actual threat to Valve, though I’m not so sure about Ubisoft being able to make it out. They also managed to buy ActiBlizzard a while back.
Blizzard was more or less always owned by Vivendi since like the 90’s i think
all they did was buy Activision too (can’t really blame scum for buying up scum) and just merge the 2 into ActBlizz
which then later parted ways from Vivendi and is “independent” again
i actually think Tencent own more of ActBlizz than Vivendi does at this point since Vivendi kept reducing shares after ActBlizz bought their way out
whether or not Ubi escapes Vivendi is ofc another matter, but tbh i don’t really care much about those sleazebags, they fully deserve to get bought up and overhauled,
not like their practices could get any worse today by it (Ubi is truly a terrible company) if bought by Vivendi, hell might just be worth it to get our Ubi library dumped if it makes a change to Ubi or the industry from the purchase
Since the thread is already hijacked, can someone explain maybe the top 3-5 most offensive things Ubisoft, Vivendi, Activision, EA, Blizzard, Valve, Zenimax, Bethesda, and Take Two have done, respectively? Pick your enemy.
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