Privacy? OMG! Even our games spy on us!

huh? what? why the hell r u guys dragging me into this shit?

https://memecrunch.com/meme/BEX1P/need-sleep/image.gif?w=500&c=1

On a more serious note, I might be mistaken, but I don’t think @Gnuffi took issue with the way I’ve presented things here specifically; after all, I’ve mostly limited myself to presenting facts based on articles and have gone out of my way to specify that whatever was not in those articles consisted of “rumors” which were probably unfounded until and unless proven otherwise; I personally think Gnuffi moreso meant the mass-hysteria that apparently has been displayed online in regards to this situation

As for me, it was the first I heard of it, and i was rly shocked and more so because no one here had even mentioned it, so i took it upon myself to do so…

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Vermintide 2 from Fat Shark also used Red Shell. The fact that these companies are now removing this software from their games, implies that there’s possibly something wrong with it that goes against the GDPR.

Exusatio non petita, accusatio manifesta

The phrase “we value your privacy” also comes to my mind…

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From what I understand, a lot of companies (much like what happened with Denuvo) are oblivious to its ramifications as what they told them and what it actually does are two very different things. They were most likely told that the data collected couldn’t be used to identify someone and purely worked on a mechanical “this thing clicked that” basis. This was apparently bullshit.

If y’all think that’s scary, you should definitely see about blocking the Google Analytics that will know every single webpage you visit. I won’t say I fear what a company does with my data, but I’m dang well afraid about what happens should that data be stolen or compromised.

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@Gnuffi is replying…

I’ve forked my reading glasses, bring it to me!

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imo, it’s because people are making a bigger fuss about this than it deserves,
it’s why i called it an everyday thing, because it’s no different than anything/everything else, yet this gets called out so strongly, like games were some sacred place that were “pure”, free from analytics, “but fine everywhere else”
you don’t get to be upset about “this” if you aren’t upset about “that”, i don’t see people calling for legislation to ban cookies or tracking or ad analytics, i don’t even see people remotely phased by any online website that employs the exact same regular features, or anything other device, electronically operated thingy or digital gizmo
but this is suddenly spyware, malware and “back doors into my system+complete breach of trust” -despite being the exact same thing as all the rest, but this is the “baddie”

i’m not debating whether or not it’s right, tho it’s not illegal(supposedly), even if those aren’t related
i’m just saying calm down, there is nothing going on here, nothing new, nothing “dangerous” at least not any more/different from all the other companies that’s mining your data on a regular basis, that they don’t care about, -why aren’t they out screaming at them, to abandon their ways too. It’s completely hypocritical do distinguish between them like that
so don’t go “wiping your drives or burn your steam accounts”,
-or suddenly swear off some game/dev that did nothing out of the ordinary, or purposely nefarious, the notion seems like pure hysteria to me.

No, a couple of people got mopey about “muh privacy” despite it “never” being an issue before, and only because (given the timing i assume) to comply with the gdpr, updated their eula, (-and maybe made the legalese sound a bit ominous), despite nothing having changed, and similar notes had been seen before elsewhere regardless.

sure you could, even if a bigger task ofc, people just don’t,
but more to the point, they don’t call out the other “spying” at all(maybe too all encompassing, but the “regular” stuff don’t get called out at least)… Look how facebook didn’t even get called out for “spying”, but merely mishandling data/access after their debacle, the “essence” of this is still there…

there is a difference (imo) between making a fuss in the sense of “i don’t like, approve/support this”, vs going on the bandwagon and start talking about malware, bad devs, “compromised system” and “torches & pitchforks”
what i mean was “stay calm, don’t go full 4chan”, just as a gentle reminder that this didn’t deserve to go there “here”

yes, i literally can, because it’s an everyday thing ,“innocent”(depending on how one feel about those things ofc), vs making it into a conspiracy theory, like people were doing with this (not on chrono, i just ofc wanted to point out it shouldn’t go that far). so it’s “both”, but one of them, is not fitting the scope of the “scandal”
Since there is no more “conspiracy” or foul play here than there is whenever someone opens their browser and on their first page gets their data saved + ad tracked
i’m not saying “because it happened everywhere it excuses it”, -but it’s legal, and you don’t get to suddenly, X time later, get all pitchfork, torch and tinfoil hat, when you’ve had no problem the last 10 years not giving a fck about anything/anywhere else -about the very same thing (not meaning you as in “you” fraggles/singular there)

this is what i meant about the gamer/pc entitlement, treating this like this is something special, when it’s not only not, but they didn’t give a sht before with all the other games, or those that didn’t use redshell but something else
you don’t get to “suddenly” be up in arms about this “tiny” thing, when there are such shitty privacy violations around on regular places, that those same people dgaf about, it comes off sorta as this very childish negative “gamer”-thing at times, everytime it’s about “a game” -imo with this particular gamer grievance at least

i might not agree with devs using analytics tools, but how the heck where “these guys” supposed to even know anyone “suddenly” might find fault with what they were doing, when nonone had said anything for the past Xyears, either in the direct related industry, or even the data gathering scene “at large”

and you are right, nothing gets changed if no one speaks up, but it was there because noone had spoken up before/not cared “enough” before, until it was plastered more directly in their face vs any other data grabber they don’t mind online/device/app/whatever that’s just the usual “ok to accept and move on”


this is a subject that’s extremely easy to just “bandwagon” or go in mild paranoia direction, because of the moniker with saturated negative connotations; “spying”, despite not warranting such, (depending on pref/pov) vs “everything else” you got going on in your digital world “anyway”, -for most people at least.

I don’t mean to belittle anyones privacy rights/concern,
my voice was just merely, no need to push this up like “the others”, -that probably sit on their iphone using twitter while being logged into their google account on “oem” win 10 bloatware laptop browsing targeted content with a free proxy, while playing an appstore f2p game, sharing their concerns about “privacy”…

don’t know if that came off as less condescending and antagonistic :thinking: anyways, my overall grumpyness had no bearing being directed at you guys despite this subject or not, and for that i do apologize, it’s more the “situation”/circumstances of it, which you don’t deserve me composing myself in a hostile manner since that’s not what i was really after here

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yea i got a problem regarding being “concise” sry :wink:, especially when i’m not out to fight, but get “my humble” point relayed in a manner that might also make (hopefully), sorta sense without starting ww3, even if not agreeing with me
(tho so far on the forum i’ve ofc not gotten the impression you guys, or Harith or Fraggles, are someone that have any interest in the logistics of starting WW over a debate/argument/disagreement anyway) :slightly_smiling_face:

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“Oh… you should know that I can get too mad…”

[starting WW3 intensifies]

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Oh if only I had the nukes to do it!
No actually I wouldn’t start WW3, I’d finish it.

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:smile: :+1:
last man standing in the desolate wastes; “I won!” :triumph: :crazy_face:

:joy: :hugs:

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I think calling Red Shell spyware is a major stretch and a muddies the term so much that it essentially becomes meaningless. In other words, it seems to be scaremongering based on faulty information. Any companies removing it are likely just balancing the pros and cons of the negative PR, not “admitting” that it was bad to begin with.

I guarantee that every single site (including Reddit) that has written articles on Red Shell, or where Red Shell is being discussed, collects more data on users than Red Shell does. Does that mean it’s harmless? That’s debatable, but it makes the outrage ring hollow.

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So not about whether there are worse things going on. Reddit, facebook google they all collect an awful lot of data, much of which is directly provided by their users others through tracking cookies, web beacons and other such stuff. Most of these things I can also block and I can opt out of actually using those services knowing that they are up to no good. They’ve all been called out for their shady behaviours time and time again, for anyone who’s willing to listen. The point is their behaviour is known and I can make choices based on that knowledge.

Red shell and it’s hidden inclusion in games I did not know about, this was never disclosed to anyone. You want to put this thing into your game then be my guest. But you have, now by law, a responsibility to disclose that and I can say “No thank you, I’ll just not buy your game then, do what you want with THAT data.”

Furthermore what data each particular developer collected with this application may be entirely harmless on it’s own. Wanted to know how many people bought their game after a market drive, sure that’s useful interesting information. There are better far more honest ways to get that data though.

The really big issue with Redshell is that the company behind it also collects the data from every game it’s bundled with for however long it is still installed on the user’s machine. This makes for a far deeper breach of privacy than any one single developer causes. Their collection of multiple sources of data makes them able to identify users at a whole other level and then sell that data to whomever they so please.

In the end, my own concern is primarily that of consumer choice and letting people make informed decisions. Redshell and every developer who used it denied us that choice and that’s a breach of trust along with privacy.

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Yep, pretty much every developer that has removed it stated that. It seems to be more of the customers going “not personal eh? WHAT ABOUT THIS [gratuitous reddit fearmongering link].”

Man, I’m so done with backlash. The internet that decided Red Shell was evil (in the middle of Facebook basically facing no long-term repercussions for all the nonsense that went down) was the same internet that decided CliffyB needed to fail, and that an amazing Battlefront II reMAKE (it really was that faithful to the source material, I can’t even call it a reboot in good faith) was torn to shreds over complaints that had been fixed in the beta. I learned back when Payday 2 was under siege that the internet tends to overcorrect and overreact, and the result is a clusterf___ 9/10 times a day.

Even when they’re right, they’re wrong. If there is a legitimate complaint, these backlash-trains are so busy trying to rally up and muster outrage that the message is lost in a sound-byte that misses the point entirely.

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That’s fair, I don’t know enough of the details to say whether or not users were “properly” informed of the data collection. I put properly in quotes because I’d assume many of these games have some sort of EULA that give broad disclosure of non-personally-identifiable data collection, and the recent introduction of GDPR is a) a mess and b) applies to different people very differently (or not at all).

Ultimately, for me the outcry about Red Shell speaks to a larger problem in the gaming community (and one could argue applies to the internet at large) where people with limited knowledge of a situation cherry pick data to generate problems that may or may not actually exist. There are situations that warrant outrage, complaint, and discussions. Being involved in the gaming retail industry, I believe this warrants the latter and neither of the former. Unfortunately, I think we’ve gotten the opposite (by and large).

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Its probably just me but I could care less what data is collected about what fonts I use or internet browser I use.

It literally means nothing to me. (The internet gets upset over anything and everything these days.)

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for the OS X ppl

for the Windows ppl

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Thank you, I’ve been looking for a new firewall since Outpost got bought up. A year and a half with kaspersky and I’m not entirely pleased with it. I will look into this one.

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