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Division 2 + Metro Exodus on Epic Games, NOT Steam store


#102

Didnt realize they snuck Denuvo into Metro Exodus. Guess thats another game i wont be buying. I was concerned that was going to happen but thought that just maybe, it wouldn’t.


#103

k, @Fraggles @CptMold @Pylinaer, can someone pls explain to me what exactly the problem is with Denuvo? I don’t get it, but i’d like to know; i’ve asked b4, but no one rly explained anything…

@xist did mention something about it being a lot better than b4 and also that maybe some ppl exaggerate concerning it (if i remember right!)


#104

It’s a DRM by a successor company to SecuROM (already a bad omen). It got a lot of attention when games started becoming “uncrackable” but the games with them tended to have a lot of other complaints crop up. There’s a lot of misinformation on both sides, and the shady behavior of the company doesn’t help that.

More than anything, Denuvo is obnoxious because it’s DRM punishment for the customer that cant even do its job. The gap has closed, and it doesn’t really stop anyone from breaking security anymore. Of course, they’re spending money on this DRM, so it kinda rubbed me the wrong way about how Deep Silver’s little scheme was justified as “saving money for the consumer.”

I have to be a bit vague because we’re dealing with a taboo topic, unfortunately, but I definitely noticed a lot of stuttering in protected games alongside huge performance enhancements in the ones that get it patched out.


#105

k, so the only actual negative i see here is potential performance issues

i mean, the fact that it’s a DRM in itself seems to be a huge problem for you, but i don’t see it that way; i don’t get what the problem is with that at all (why would i care about whether it actually prevents cracking games or completely fails to do so?), so maybe i’m missing something?


#106

Well the basics is simply that it is an always on DRM system which requires you to be online to play your games, it will call back ever so often to make sure your games remains legitimate because of course you bought the game so maybe you’ll crack it for no reason 2 weeks later, who knows. Better be on the safe side! Or mod it for that matter, it makes modding rather unfeasible.

This of course comes with the games for windows live risk of once the authentication servers shut down your game wont be able to authorize you to keep using it and you’ll lose access to the game if denuvo is not patched out. This was also the case with their previous DRM Securom or maybe it was safedisc? Either way they’ve abandoned a DRM solution before and games still infected with that is now unplayable.

Then we get into the more speculative parts. There are games that have demonstrated notable changes in load times before and after Denuvo was removed from the title. There are a lot of claims of performance impacts, especially so on older systems. Further on and even harder to properly verify, there’s concerns about system security issues. Because we know that previous draconian DRM caused these and this company has not shown themselves to be particularly interested in caring about anything but enforcing their own will onto the consumer at any cost.

At the end of the day it’s just another in the lineup of intrusive DRM schemes that does nothing for the customer and even if it is only a slight chance that it might misfire then that’s a chance YOU take as a paying customer that the pirates does not have to worry about.

As such I’ve had a long standing principled stand against DRM and will stay away from anything that chose to wield such overwrought weapons against their customers. They have never managed to prove that piracy causes lost sales, yet they keep attacking their own customers in this manner and that is why I opt to not be their customer.


#107

k, but a quick internet search seems to indicate that this is not the case at all, and that you must only be online the first time you launch the game and then it might request this again at some later dates and it might also not (some ppl claim they can go over a year without ever having to be online to play, even having the game blocked in their firewall)

apparently this is also necessary for Steam games btw (having to be online the first time u launch them)

true, but we also all take this risk with Steam games; we don’t even OWN them, which is actually worse when u think about it; have u ever thought about that?

also this:

Denuvo is an anti tamper software. It itself doesn’t dictate when and if you can play a game. That is up to the games existing DRM solution. Denuvo’s job is make sure the existing DRM gets to work as intented and pirates can’t get around it. In this case this game as the normal steam drm solution except this time because of Denuvo it actually works. Which is a single online activation then offline mode is fine to use for the forseeable future. The only thing that will trigger a denuvo online check is if the systems hardware id changes.

source: https://steamcommunity.com/app/429660/discussions/0/133255603283411221/


#108

Denuvo must check these parameters. RiME is a pretty good example of that, with thousands of calls every minute.


#109

so what about all the ppl who claim that u can play tons of games which have Denuvo offline? r they all lying?


#110

Well I’m afraid that’s just straight up a lies and misinformation.

If you’ve ever gone to the steam forums of a newly announced game with Denuvo on it you’ll see a few threads with people protesting and in EVERY one of these thread you will see a host of other people attacking those protestors. Calling them filth and thieves and all sorts of uncouth stuff. This is every where, every time on every game forum to the point that I am sure that the Denuvo company are the ones doing it. This of course I can not prove but it’s something I’ve never seen before with any other DRM and I mean, really come on? Who in their right mind would be doing this with their free time?

Who would go out of their way to LAUD the inclusion of DRM in their games? Because these weirdos are doing just that.

No I’m pretty sure the Denuvo company runs a campaign of misinformation through “troll” accounts on both steam and other forums.

Also simply incorrect. Steam is not DRM in and of it self, we’ve been over this before. You can run a lot of steam games without steam, you can make local backups of any game you own on steam. Also I for one do actually properly own the licenses to my games on steam, Americans might not but Europeans do.

Steam is only facilitator between me and a publisher/dev. Should steam vanish one day it will be up to each individual publisher or developer to provide me access to every game that I own directly in one way or another. Well there’s of course a matter of what the laws say and how the laws will be applied once they’re called upon and as such there’s little we can truly say for sure.


#111

good luck with that dude, also hope u got millions set aside to take all of those companies who don’t actually do that (and what about companies who no longer exist even?)

also:

k, well i’m downloading a game which has Denuvo right now to test this myself, cuz i want to know


#112

Yeah that article is from 2012.
The laws have changed and there have been specific clarifications regarding software license ownership.

Good luck with that. Might also be worth mentioning that Denuvo doesn’t have to act the same way with every title, it can be configured to behave in a variety of ways. It is entirely possible that for Berseria in particular it really does only call home once when you’ve installed it. This doesn’t matter for a GFWL situation though as you’ll still be unable to install the game again if the servers go down.


#113

then maybe ppl shouldn’t say that it absolutely prevents u from playing offline???

how is one to download the game if the servers go down or when that person is offline in the first place?

i also think it’s kind of funny ppl want to boycott something cuz it requires you to “always be online” (apparently that’s not even true, not in many cases at least) although ppl usually are virtually “always online”, at least at home, on their pc

but doesn’t the Steam user agreement literally say u don’t own the game and they only provide the games as a service???

The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services. To make use of the Content and Services, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.

source: https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/


#114

I didn’t.

It’s not the denuvo servers that provide you with the game. The point is that denuvo runs their own verification servers, not steam.

There’s a huge difference between being always online and someone forcing you to be. Not everyone has stable and permanent internet even today, look a little beyond your own situation.

As for the term “always” it doesn’t include a check in every CPU clock cycle or as an overhead to every packet your network sends out obviously. It checks back every once in a while, as I stated in my first post on the topic. Could be only once, could be every week, could be on every start up. Doesn’t matter, it’s still bad.

EULAS and user agreements are generally worthless in court. There’s plenty of rights you can not sign away no matter how much companies wants you to try.


#115

u … did … ? and when i said lots of ppl are saying that is not true, u said:

I’m exactly in that situation; i live in frikkin Egypt, remember? my internet shuts down over 10x/day; it usually comes back within minutes, but sometimes it can take a good while…


#116

Alright, very well it might not always at every point require you to be always online.

Really doesn’t change anything though.


#117

well, I tested it

The game i chose to do so was

simply because it’s the only one that i own (is free to play rofl) which is relatively small to download (3GB), so i first downloaded it, and then i shut off my router:

image

then i clicked play game (it first gave me the “first time installing” message although i have played it before):

image

it gave me this message:

image

so i clicked “play game”

and then the game launched, perfectly fine, although i was OFFLINE and my router was OFF

k now i’m going back to watching lirik play through Subnautica, which i never finished nor plan on playing again, but i might as well watch how it ends, rofl


#118

Mad Max has Denuvo too. Not sure if you’ve played that or just idled it.

In the end whilst I’d like a world without Denuvo, if a game I want to play has it then I’ll play the game. As far as I can see the removal of Denuvo from RE7 has had no impact upon performance (although admittedly I’ve hardly looked).


#119

y just idled; will only install it once i plan on actually starting it, so it’s my only “favourite”-labelled game atm, lol, as i already have 52 installed games atm


#120

I’ve heard good things about a lack of stuttering (which I heard being a problem for a lot of people before), but it’s all hearsay until I actually play it myself.


#121

i watched this whole game on youtube/twitch, and none of the ppl whom i watched play that ever had any issues though, and that was when it had just released (ofc i’m aware most streamers/youtubers [at least the known ones] have good rigs in the first place)